The Nuggets’ two unsuccessful inbounds plays from the 2009 Western Conference Finals against the Lakers still irk Kenyon Martin.

In Game 1, Anthony Carter’s pass intended for Chauncey Billups was picked off by Trevor Ariza which sealed a Lakers’ win. In Game 3, Ariza picked off Martin’s inbounds pass intended for Carmelo Anthony.

Asked about those sequences in a wide-ranging interview with DNVR about a number of topics including the 2009 playoffs and Western Conference Finals, Martin said that the Nuggets “didn’t have out-of-bounds plays” and didn’t practice those situations either.

The former 15-year pro also discussed the biggest differences between today’s game and when he played in the league, how he’d defend Nikola Jokic, “The Last Dance” documentary, the NBA’s new professional pathway program through the G League, and much more.

DNVR: We’ve been re-watching the Nuggets’ 2009 playoff run over at DNVR and we’re halfway through the Lakers series in the Western Conference Finals. Did you guys feel like you were right at their level throughout that entire series?

Kenyon Martin: Yeah. Our confidence was at an all-time high coming into that series with the way that the first few rounds went. With how those rounds went we knew we could compete with anybody and we brought that confidence into that series. And we definitely thought we were, if not playing better than them, just as good. Minus Game 1 throwing the ball away. Anthony Carter. Game 3 I threw it away. Out-of-bounds plays. Without those out-of-bounds plays we feel we win that series. We definitely felt like we were right there.

DNVR: Have you watched those out-of-bounds plays since?

Martin: I watch them and it hurts my stomach. It irks me every time I see it. But it just wasn’t throwing the ball away. It was the circumstances surrounding why we threw the ball away.

DNVR: What were those circumstances?

Martin: We didn’t have out-of-bounds plays. We didn’t have intricate schemes and plays for underneath and side out-of-bounds. George’s thing was, simple as possible. We just tried to get the ball in and then we’d run a set. Instead of us trying to get a bucket off of the play we just wanted to get the ball in. And the Lakers played that to their advantage. So we’re trying to zipper Melo up and all they did was deny, deny, deny. We’re not trying to set a screen, we’re not trying to set a couple screens to get the ball in.

DNVR: You guys never practiced out-of-bounds plays?

Martin: Never.

DNVR: Do you win the championship if you beat the Lakers?

Martin: I believe so. We would have beat Orlando that year. No doubt in my mind. Because they didn’t have enough as you saw. They didn’t have enough. Dwight was their best player. They had Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu, Jameer Nelson. I just don’t see it. We felt that we had everything that we needed as a team to win the championship this year.

DNVR: Was Kobe the toughest guy you played against?

Martin: Yeah. His aggression and his skill-set and his will to win. No doubt in my mind throughout my career he was one of the better players if not the best player I’ve played against.

DNVR: In Game 1 of the second round against the Mavs you gave Dirk a forearm shove right as he’s driving to the hoop and he hits the floor. Was that you trying to send a message to start the series?

Martin: I shoved him, but he put something on it. It was a statement, but I’ve always done it to Dirk. It just didn’t start that series. I’ve always tried to get into — just the way I thought he played. He was a finesse guy. Nothing wrong with it, but that’s not gonna work against me. So he drove, they blew the whistle early and he kept driving to the basket trying to get an and-1. So I shoved him. But it wasn’t like I two-armed pushed him with all my might. And I got fined 25 grand. They said I was trying to intimidate the game. No. I was tying to intimidate him, not the game. I’m not just going to let Dirk run around freely and do what he do well. Not going to happen.

DNVR: How would you defend Nikola Jokic? What would be your strategy going against him?

Martin: I’ve watched him play a lot and I think he uses his brain more than the average person because he’s not that athletic. Because he weighs more than me like most guys did in my career I’d just use my quickness and my athleticism and I’d front him. I’d just try to meet him early, just rough him up as much as possible. He’s a finesse guy. He has size, but he’s a finesse guy. My physicality meets his finesse. I’m going with my physicality every day. Some guys that works with. Against a guy like Tim Duncan it did nothing. The way I played he just stayed the course.

DNVR: You were on teams in New Jersey and Denver where there was a lot of continuity. Can that ever get stale?

Martin: If you’re keeping the core three or four guys together I don’t think so. We all know NBA rosters turn over every year but if you can keep the same three, four, five guys within that locker room and add pieces I don’t think it’s a bad thing. As long as those guys are showing they’re getting better and they’re gelling together, I don’t think its a bad thing. You look at myself, Nene, Melo, we were all there for a significant time. We added Chauncey, we added JR.

DNVR: How’s your relationship with the Nuggets organization currently? 

Martin: I think it’s great. My seven years there, I only had a problem with one person, everybody else was great from the time I got there when Kiki (VanDeWeghe) was the GM, to Masai (Ujiri), Rex (Chapman), everybody, you name it. All the assistant coaches, I have a great relationship with everybody I see to this day. There’s no animosity. I only had a problem with one person in seven years. He just happened to be the head coach.

DNVR: Is there anything George could do to repair your guys’ relationship?

Martin: Nothing. There’s nothing. He can not speak my name ever again and I’ll be fine.

DNVR: What’s the biggest difference between your era and the present day league?

Martin: Everybody’s buddy, buddy. Everybody follows everybody on Instagram. Everybody likes everybody’s pictures. Everybody is Twitter buddies and everybody has a handshake. Everybody is lovey lovey before the game and after the game. And every hard foul is a flagrant. No freedom of movement and layup after layup after layup after dunk after dunk with no resistance.

It bothers me to watch the game played this way. I get it to a certain degree that the league implemented freedom-of-movement and all these other rules changes which I understand. They don’t want guys just fighting. I get that. But the overall play is soft. Before, you didn’t know when guys played extremely hard because everybody played hard. Now, when a guy like Russell Westbrook or Montrezl Harrell or Patrick Beverley or somebody like Giannis, the way they approach the game, it stands out. If you think about it those guys stand out because they play so hard all the time. And it’s not matched. There’s no resistance to a LeBron James. Like, none whatsoever. And it’s benefited him and the game to a certain degree.

But people that grew up watching it and I get the question all the time, ‘Is the NBA soft?’ I couldn’t play in this NBA because my last two years every hard foul they were going to the monitor and it was a Flagrant 1. I’m like, ‘It’s a hard foul? I’m trying not to give up a layup. We’re in the playoffs.’ I get it to a certain degree. Do I like it? Over the years there have been a few teams that I couldn’t watch play. I couldn’t watch it. I couldn’t watch certain teams when the oldest guy on the team is 24. They don’t know how to play. They’re playing soft. They don’t know how to defend. They don’t know how to compete. They don’t know defensive schemes, all of that stuff. And that’s just part of the nature of the NBA. Do I love basketball? Of course. Do I love watching? Of course. I love going to games. I love being around it. But at times it’s been hard to stomach.

DNVR: On the topic of “The Last Dance” that’s currently airing, Michael Jordan wasn’t afraid to call out guys in practice. How much do you think the league misses that type of self-policing in locker rooms right now?

Martin: If they would have more vets in locker rooms then they could get that instead of having guys that have been playing for a certain amount of years and they tell you you’re too old now. I think they could get that if you allowed certain guys to prolong their careers. Because it’s a bunch of kids in locker rooms right now. So I’m pretty sure there’s a void in that manner. You know, when you bring in a guy at 19 and he’s looking up to a guy that’s 23, 24 years old, and then the 24 year old is looking up to a guy that was 24 when he got in the league, they haven’t learned anything. They don’t know how to be competitive when they come in. They don’t know that winning is a learning habit in the NBA.

From watching this documentary, the more people watch they’ll see that winning is a learning habit. You’re just not gonna show up Day 1 and you’re winning. It takes time. And you need veterans and guys that have been around the block to lead the other guys, the young dogs, the young guns that you have. You still need old dogs. You still need that in order to be successful I think. And I think that’s the nature of the NBA now. There are voids in locker rooms.

DNVR: Your son Kenyon Martin Jr. attended IMG Academy this season and has since declared for the draft. Why did he go that route instead of playing in college?

Martin: His goal has always been to get to the NBA. His initial thought was he had to go to school in order to get there and the more time went by and the different conversations we were having with different people, and some his peers as well were thinking about not going to college. He voiced that he didn’t really do all of this to go to college. He did all of this to be a professional. So we talked about it, we did the homework, gave him all the pros and cons and things that people were saying. So we made a sound decision. We could have went overseas. Could have gone one of the overseas routes or tried the G League thing, but there was politics involved with all of that. We just decided the best route for him with no politics would be to go to IMG, train, work on your game, still get to play some games. Work on your game, train, get away from being at home with no politics. So we thought it was the best, smartest route for him.

DNVR: This new G League route where Jalen Green will be playing in Los Angeles on a G League team and making around $500K or so. What do you think about the NBA making that a viable alternative route?

Martin: They could open (the draft) up for kids coming out of high school but you can’t just let anybody declare for the draft. They have to have an honest assessment of a kid that wants to come to the NBA. You can’t just have a kid like Robert Swift. He didn’t have a chance at hell of playing in the NBA out of high school. So I get what they’re trying to do. But I think for guys like Jalen and Isaiah Todd, other people that fit that description where their talent level is head and shoulders above some of the best college players, when they’re equal in that playing field, yeah I think there should be an opportunity for them to go and make money to start training as a pro here rather than going overseas and giving other countries and other people the opportunity to get eyes on them.

But like I said, if they would have a better system in place I think they still could have kids coming out of high school, going into the NBA, not the G League route. I don’t think they have been willing to. I don’t know if it hurts kids feelings or whatever the case may be. But you have to be honest about a kid’s ability to play in the NBA and not just let anybody do it. I’m excited for Jalen and anybody else who’s going to do it. To have the opportunity to go out and make money at 18-years-old, 19-years-old and work on your craft, and his skill-set says that he can play in the league so I’m all for it.

This interview has been edited and condensed.